Skip to main content

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS

203 replies [Last post]
Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

I see… I must say however I insist on keeping things small so we can focus on a talking point. You bring good ones but in walls of text they can get lost and proper discussion is impossible or really hard.

StrikerS plot is, overall, quite weak and another reason the series just doesn’t connect with me. Is partially responsible that the characters, in general, just don’t get me interested. I did not tune StrikerS to see the Forwards, I did it to see Nanoha and the others so that might help to me not liking them since they seem so inferior that I just wonder why are we replacing the good old cast for a new one? I mean they didn’t even let the original cast feel stale enough to demand the change, or so it seems to me.

Erio and Caro are not even worth mentioning. The entire Lutecia arc exist to give them something to do and as such they really never click right. I do notice that we agree on Caro’s issue being brought up all of the sudden and then unceremoniously resolve when she rescues Erio (I think the same goes for Teana’s arc is just that hers lasted longer, but I digress). Their paring was so uninspired and bland that it shock me people just assume it. Shari gives Erio dating advice and send them together without even considering the two might not get along, see each other as siblings or could that they could be gay for all we know.

And another thing that made me laugh was Erio “rescuing” Fate from falling rocks at the end. The fastest mage alive and she needs a 10 years all to bridal carry her to safety. Which look even worse because Fate is like twice as tall as Erio at this point and so she seems to be trying hard not to touch the ground as Erio lifts her.

As for Fried he is a rejected Pokemon design and I think they intended him to be the pet of the show but Rein took that role from him.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Sansker wrote:
StrikerS plot is, overall, quite weak and another reason the series just doesn’t connect with me.

Oh I have my own beef with the plot belive me. I have finished the rewatch, and I have found that while I did like it again (except pretty much any section where Numbers were using hax to win, but more on that later) I'm now of firm opinion that the plot that we got was not the plot that was initially planned when they conceived the idea of the show. Sometime far into the production they figured out that they had no way of fitting this plot into 26 episodes so somebody had to go in with a fireaxe and slash major parts of the story line (IMO mostly things dealing with Hayate, investigation, Regius and the darkness in TSAB. This supposed would have been much more interesting to me. But I'll need some time to properly compose my thoughts on that.

Sansker wrote:
Is partially responsible that the characters, in general, just don’t get me interested. I did not tune StrikerS to see the Forwards, I did it to see Nanoha and the others so that might help to me not liking them since they seem so inferior that I just wonder why are we replacing the good old cast for a new one? I mean they didn’t even let the original cast feel stale enough to demand the change, or so it seems to me.

As I said, it would have been nice to get an adventure set between StrikerS and A's with just the OG crew. Which I hope the movie will deliver on. Then again I'm not confident in 7 Arts being able to pull off anything any more that I might like.

Sansker wrote:
Erio and Caro are not even worth mentioning. The entire Lutecia arc exist to give them something to do and as such they really never click right. I do notice that we agree on Caro’s issue being brought up all of the sudden and then unceremoniously resolve when she rescues Erio (I think the same goes for Teana’s arc is just that hers lasted longer, but I digress). Their paring was so uninspired and bland that it shock me people just assume it. Shari gives Erio dating advice and send them together without even considering the two might not get along, see each other as siblings or could that they could be gay for all we know.

Exactly. While we might not agree on weather or not Teana's arc was justifiable, at least it was built up properly. We were shown what supposedly was bothering her, in my case I bought it and in your case the writers failed to properly engage you, we saw her try to deal with her problem and blunder a bit, the problem was brought to a quite explosive creshendo with the White Devil Incident and then it was resolved.
Even Subaru got her own arc, the only problem with that one it was stretched and then stretched some more over the entire season so you might as well have forgotten that her entire arc was about her leaving her crybaby self behind and becoming somebody on whoom other people can rely on to save them. We were shown her geting bettor over time and in the end she managed to overcome her fears an insecurities and save her sister. Of course the entire thing was by that point streched so much that we all forgot of it, and the sister angle was not the direction her arc should have gone, but still it was an arc and Subaru that left for the Search and Rescue was different from the one that entered RF6.

Meanwhile in Erio/Caro land their motivations for joining RF6 were what exactly? Not to disappoint Fate or something?!? You might say that they gained some levels while they were at RF6, but Erio that entered is allmost practically the same one that left. Caro got a tiny bit more of it beciming a bit more self reliant, but even that is only displayed in the last fight where she stands on her own against Lutecia. And as I said the dragon summoner thing gets resolved with no buildup at all. In fact if I remember it correctly Caro dives into a canyon for Erio, a boy she JUST met (though she might be doing it for Fate's sake but I doubt it), then we are shown her supposed problem and then she resolves half the problem by properly controlling Freid. That is not an arc. That is something that simply happened. Now that I say this, it reminds me of Fuka's "arc" that also got introduced in the first episode and then suddenly resolved in her fight with Rinne when she is suddenly stronger or as strong as her.
Similar thing happens with Voltare. They need a cool way to stop an army of drones, and so they have her summon VOltare while she is at her worst mentally. At least in that case we now knew that this was a risk and they did try to build it back in episode 10 I think when Caro tried to explain to Erio why she doesn't want him to meet Voltare yet. But still it was poor.

Sansker wrote:
And another thing that made me laugh was Erio “rescuing” Fate from falling rocks at the end. The fastest mage alive and she needs a 10 years all to bridal carry her to safety. Which look even worse because Fate is like twice as tall as Erio at this point and so she seems to be trying hard not to touch the ground as Erio lifts her.

While I like the combat system in general and I do like that they mostly do stick to the explained ideas on how attacks and defenses work, enough that you can play out matches in your head, the cast is often to blame for not moving out of the way of attacks that they clearly should be able to dodge. Hell half of them have some form of movement magic allowing them to move quickly, even Nanoha has Flash Step. But then again is't more DRAMA to have the protagonist see the attack and panic or something.

A more ridiculous part of that scene is not so much Erio having to rescue Fate, but what is Caro doing meanwhile. She brought Voltare all the way up to the mountains pretty far from Clangan at which point she decalres how she and Voltare are going to help the ground Forces against the gadget drones. Then they show us Voltare crushing like three drones effortlessly, much wow real impressed. More ridiculous is... what drones was she going to help with? The base is gone. The main contigent of the drones is in the city. You know what contigent of drones could really use help? The one that managed to break off from the battle around Cradle since Hayate was no longer there to help contain them. There was a real bloody ARMADA of them that were about to torch Clangan. Clangan in which Caro and Voltare were along withe the main detachment of drones. And this ARMADA in the end was only stopped because Signum has unisoned with Agito and their partnership Sigito, due to their insane sync rating, just become the biggest exporter of flame based PAIN in the TSA systems so she was able to rip through them like through paper.

Sansker wrote:
As for Fried he is a rejected Pokemon design and I think they intended him to be the pet of the show but Rein took that role from him.

Rein at least, despite her kind of annoying voice and all the attempts to use her as but of many jokes, knows how to strap on her staff sergant pants on and do her job decently, has a determined character motivation and was shown to be able to operate even out of unison and away from her mistress and be quite good at it. Guess how Erio rates on these fields? BADLY. Basically Rein has more agency in the story than he has.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

Bah, I doubt we will ever see the timeskip done justice. We only got the A’s to StrikerS Comics and they suck. I do admit they did explain some things but they bring more questions than answers.

As for the character arcs. Subaru’s is really confusing, since it seem it would revolve around Nanoha and then later she drops it to just helping people like she was help which was never brought until she got enough punches in the head (Which means 50/50 she was hallucinating not remembering).

Teana’s… just not well introduce and too poorly handle. The whole White Devil Incident with Nanoha… boy that is one of the worst moments of the show in itself which has been debate to no end everywhere. Was it justified? Was it abuse? It was out of character for Nanoha? Was everyone taking their stupid pills that morning? Don’t make me get started, this point alone is one of the reasons I hate Teana’s arc.

I think I said the kids suck, and they will always suck, so not bothering to add anything here.

Rein? She was laughable, at best, annoying the rest of the time. She was just a tiny child copy of Hayate which existed for no other purpose than to make me miss the original Reinforce. She is a sergeant (Or whatever her rank is)? I could not look at her and keep a straight face I doubt she can command respect, class, dignity or even make everyone resist the urge to smother her. Sorry, I just find her irritating and unnecessary, which she is. I mean Rein exist to fight Agito, and you know why I know this? They are polar opposites: Reing is ice and blue while Agito is fire and red. It was so obvious that they just existed to fight each other.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Which questions do the comics raisein particular?
Yeah, I'm not letting my hopes rise to high. Well I know we will never get anything from that period in the main universe. But we MIGHT get something in the alternative ones like the Movie ones. NOw will those be any good, is a million dollar question. But given recent performance, I can not be too optimistic.

Well Subaru's arc was never really tied to Nanoha the person, but more to the Nanoha the ideal. To simplify it, for Subaru Nanoha is this legendary rescue worker/firefighter who rescues people all the time. She wants to follow that idealized version of Nanoha, leave behind her crybaby self and become somebody that saves people. What she kind of doesn't notice is that Nanoha is not a legendary firefighter, but a legendary special forces mage. Sure she will pitch in if there are lives at stake, but her primary interest lies in smacking people in the skies with magic and developing other people's talents so they can smack the enemies of citizens in the skies with magic. See the slight difference between what she wants and what she got? And why she really isn't interested in Nanoha the person, well she is also Subaru and friendly with EVERYONE, so much as Nanoha the ideal (her version of it) towards which to strive for.

As for Reinforce and White Devil Incidents:

2.2.4. The Wolkenritter
-- the section dealing with the rest of them will be posted later to keep the posts manageable --
Reinforce was fine for me. Even she is a bit too cheerful, and it’s obvious what she is supposed to pander to, she does seem capable of doing her job and operating independently of Hayate. Hell she participated in most if not all of the fights and in practically all of them (unless a particularly dangerous opponent was around or Hayate needed her) she participated as an independent mage with ice based spells. Also it’s fun watching a pixie doing the scary staff sergeant routine and pulling it off. She does pull it off, I personally don’t remember anyone except her family in private, giving her any lip when on duty. She even gets proper character motivation set based around her need to live up to the legacy of her name. One should note that certain supposed “protagonist” actually lacks most of this (agency, character motivation etc.).

4.5. The White Devil incident
This section has seen quite a bit of change over time. At first I was mostly annoyed at Teana for forgetting about where she was, in the military, what with all of her babbling about being held back and things. Then I rewatched it and now my position is this:
I’m a bit of two minds of this scene. On one hand the childish part of me likes any opportunity for Nanoha the beast to poke her head out and show how utterly oppressively better she is. On the other hand, while the sober part of me can explain the lot of the incident which I don’t mind, I do have one thing that I kind of think is off. First the things I’m fine with.
I’m in general fine with the general way Nanoha handled the situation. Teana sprung on her a needlessly dangerous maneuver that she never trained her in that was badly executed and failed in it’s intent. So Teana here made several mistakes worthy of verbal chewing out. She went outside of the scope of the exercise by using a physical attack (the blade visibly slices Nanoha’s hand when she grabs the blade) which could inflict serious permanent damage on her SUPERIOR OFFICER. She also used a sequence of moves that she thought of herself, when the point of the exercise was probably to exercise that which was taught, and then that self made attack maneuver failed completely. Had she used a more normal magical self made attack maneuver that would culminate in a regular magical attack, Nanoha would have likely still have admonished her for exercising behind the back of her instructors, but she would have also congratulated her for a successful tactics used. So there were several things that Nanoha had every right to chew her on, including a big one, practically an unneeded and unprovoked assault on her combat instructor. Where Teana made things worse was instead of bowing her head and taking her medicine for her screw up she then verbally exploded on the instructor AND showed that despite it all she wanted to continue attacking the instructor despite clearly losing the engagement since Nanoha had stopped her main attack and wrapped her in a levitation spell. If she was able to do that (without RH mind) she could have also bound her and then did whatever she wanted to her, had she been an enemy combatant. At this moment it became perfectly reasonable for Nanoha to grant her wish and use the “duel” to drive in a hard and slightly humiliating lesson (Nanoha cast Teana’s own crossfire shoot at her without a device, FASTER than Teana could) she should not soon forget.
So for the most of it the actions were fine. Sure Nanoha could have simply restrained Teana when she went off on her tirade, and then had her tossed from the RF6 for variety of reasons, but instead she chose not to endanger her future as a mage, and to teach her a lesson while abiding by the rules of the practice match.
The part that seemed mostly off for me was the way Nanoha’s disappointment was shown. It’s not wrong for her to be disappointed, when a pair she thought were her star pupils showed to have completely ignored her previous instructions, but simply something with the way she behaved completely emotionlessly was off. She was not being professional but emotionless. And I can’t pinpoint what exactly is off. Also I kind of feel that this should not have hit her as hard, if she has any experience teaching. For all their talent these are still rookies and they tend to make the stupidest mistakes. Teana pulling a stunt like this really should not have been surprising to her. She should have still came down on her like a ton of bricks for Teana’s and other’s sake so they don’t try something as stupid in the future, but depression induced by surprise shouldn’t have been her response I feel.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

I won’t over the Comics, really they just fill plot points in the show and then add some. Like the chapter about the Meaning of Strength or something. In there I discover it had been 6 months since the start of StrikerS which shock me to no end because I always assume the entire series took 2 months but seems they went the slow and scenic route and they never project it as they should.

And the issue with Subaru is that the whole idea of Nanoha as a legendary figure feels weak. I mean, why is she a legend? Because we said so, then she is no longer a legend in ViVid and Force so I am left with WTF? Moments thinking back to StrikerS. But the main issue with the show is that it assume it was far more complex and interesting than it should. Rein… no, she is none of those things you describe to me. She doesn’t pull anything other than annoying and over cheerful (But then again that seems to be a common issue) as far as I am concern. So different perceptions in this case.

About the White Devil Incident. Half of what you say is speculation, plain and simple. Yes it is a logical way to explain it BUT the show never is so explicit. We never learn what were the parameters of the training exercise, what was Teana teach to do or not do (I mean the energy blades were install in Cross Mirage so they were expecting Teana to use them), what Nanoha had teach them since she never teaches them anything at all aside from basics… so I have no bases to construct a case here, I can do that explanation you did but the show itself never settles the scene properly to grant this display.

It’s all pay off and not setting, so you could explain everyone’s actions if you go out of your way and insist on things the show never tells us. This was meant to shock us, nothing more. Nanoha being so cold and distant for no other reason than her students didn’t listen to her never explain, stablish or even mention teachings (I mean, she is an Instructor dealing with teenagers and this is the first time she deals with people that don’t listen to her?) and then everyone just stares like idiots this display, that took everyone by surprise, and nobody even thinks Nanoha went a bit too far and unnecessarily assault her student.

Besides that… how is Teanna’s attack dangerous? Yes Nanoah cut herself but in a previous episode Erio launched himself with a bloody pointy stick at Nanoha and she didn’t blast him in to oblivion for darting to poke her… how is this more dangerous? When is magic dangerous? How Erio’s attack wasn’t? I mean this needs explaining but they never tell us this.

Teana is not better… why is she going insane to this simple mistake? How is this so shocking? I mean, yes she fail but then again we never knew what they could or couldn’t do so how is she getting out of the rules if we don’t know the rules? And even then Nanoha being so cold and hurt over something so trivial somehow makes Teana loose her cool and think attacking again will make things better.

No, the entire thing is just a cheap trick to create drama that never comes out again. Nanoha never gets so fire up about anything in that manner. It came out of nowhere, contradict Nanoha’s kind nature, and went away when the show wanted to proceed. You do give a decent explanation, but that is not properly settle in the show and so I do not think the writers made anything smart or coherent there. All to launch the Forward to watch the DVD sets of the previous two seasons (They didn’t even pretend the clips Shari show were recordings, they were clips from the previous seasons) by Shari… not Fate, not Vita… Shari to make a case about risking your life when is necessary and always obeying Nanoha because she is always right and anyone who doubts that gets punch in the face. I could go on, so I will stop here.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Awww fuck, I overdid it AGAIN!

-----------------

Our crucial dissagreement here I think stems from suspension of disbelief. While there are things in the StrukerS explanations/lore that I found stupid the suspension never broke for me while for you it has broken a long ago. Which is not a problem with you but likely with the show itself. So while for me the world still works on rules, even though I might not like some of them, I am willing to look over the IMO small amount of gaps and mistakes that I can not explain and am willing to find logical explanations for the others, while for you the mystique is gone and every wrong step the or unexplained thing it does show makes is a further betrayal. In a way this is as if we both are watching a theatrical play and you are not liking it but I am, and then a guy in a wolf's costume comes on stage. I'm willing to accept the wolf walking on two feet, while for you it's a guy in poorly made wolf suit (it was a bear suit last week) and for the fucks sake why is the Hunter threatening the wolf with an paintball rifle. To make matters worse I LIKE the fact that I can find ways to logically explain situations, and for me that makes the headcannon world even more believable, while for you, since you have lost the confidence in the writers, it produces the opposite effect.

This does make it hard for us to agree on things, allthough I would say that the fact that the show did loose you is a big problem and NOT a case of "you just don't get it".

The timeline: Yeah a year did pass by, some episodes also explicitly mention that some time has passed since the last one, they do reference dates couple of times and there was an extended training montage in one of the early episodes that also probably took place in a span of days or even weeks. I think they did have a general (VERY general) idea of when every episode should have happened but since we never see any seasonal changes it's a lot harder on us to see the change in time.

Legend and later mangas: Considering how much less I like Vivid and Force and how much they fucked about with the setting, I don't like at all the changes they made to it. IMO the transition from A's to StrikerS was a LOT smoother than from StrikerS to Vivid. The transition to Force was a bit more smooth but then they introduced the stupid Eclipse virus and fucked it all up. Basically I take anything introduced in anything after StrikerS Sound Stage X with a Everest sized grains of salt and am guilty of completely ignoring them if I think they don't fit with what was stated in first three seasons.
As for the Nanoha's status in those two yes it was SERIOUSLY nerfed in Vivid just so they could pigeonhole her into an almost stay at home mom and more importantly to lessen her impact on other characters. They didn't want all of the new competitors Vivio met to be "Wait your surname is Takamachi. Any relation to Ace of Aces Nanoha?". But even in Vivid Nanoha is still in the Beaurou and is likely still teaching, she is only not taking combat roles. But yeah the fact that combat obsessed people like Einhart do not know about her is ridiculous and is another reason I tend not to take things from Vivid seriously.
On the other hand I don't particularly remember any fame related nerfings in Force. Especially since that was supposed to be StrikerS 2.0. It certainly brought back the worst part of Strikers and MADE IT WORSE, the terrible stupid uninteresting antagonists.

Well, sure a lot is speculation, but it's speculation based on things we were shown and that show did try hard to establish. The show did try hard to build up Nanoha as a great teacher, and given that we never see her actually teach (apart from that one montage, and combat exercises), and the rest of the cast and events doesn't really try to contradict the statement it's obviously true in their universe. The incident happens after several days (weeks?) of training via montage and it clearly was not a spur of the moment thing since Teana knew it was going to happen the day before and it was going to include her and Subaru facing off against Nanoha. Given that it came at the end of days of grueling training the most probable reason for it was to check up in a mock battle on how much better are Teana and Subaru at cooperating in battle.
The blade mode was DEFINITELY NOT supposed to be used at that point since Teana did NOT have access to the actual mode 2 of the Cross Mirage. She only got access to it AFTER the incident. The blade she pulled on Nanoha was something she herself on her own bodged together, and the way she used it was also something she devised on her own with the help of Subaru as her training partner (we were shown this). Furthermore we hear her thoughts and plans as she prepares to jump Nanoha and she plainly states that her intention is not simply to score a hit (which would probably have been enough) but to "pierce barrier and field and score one hit kill" (I am choosing to LIBERALLY interpret that kill in the end as take down not murder). In the end it probably would not have worked even if she was able to surprise Nanoha since the blade was barely able to cut the skin on Nanoha's hand, but it does show that Teana was clearly doing something she wasn't supposed to be attempted in mock fighting. She knew the risk which is why she asked Subaru the night before if this type of attack was okay with her, not so much because it's breaking the rules, but because they will be pulling it on Nanoha. Also she was not using the techniques she WAS taught how to use (again in the montage) but was resorting to something she thought up on her own, which to add insult to injury (of Nanoha's teaching pride) DID NOT work at all and was relatively easy to see through (I mean if Subaru is not a mirage and is engaging you, and Teana is not supporting Subaru with fire as a Center Guard should, the only explanation is that she is NOT acting as a center guard as she was taught).
As for Erio's vs Teana's attack, the circumstances were quite different. Erio's attack was expected and seen and Nanoha was able to put up a barrier before impact. Also Erio's attack was something that he was trained in before so was not something he bodged together and would have likely done pure magical damage and who knows what Teana's would have done, but considering that her blade actually CUT Nanoha's arm it's not looking good. That is it would not have looked good had she been able to penetrate the Barrier Jacket and not fail which was more likely to happen, but you never know she could have accidentally hit a weak spot.
Practically all of this we were either told or shown in the show.

As for Nanoha "assaulting" her students. Only the second attack was potentially out of line. The first one was fully justifiable since the student refused to stand down and attempted to continue the exercise despite Nanoha ending it. So "humoring" her with an attack that shows her just how much out of line and out of practice she is was fine. It hits two birds with one stone. The second one was less needed considering that at this point Teana was clearly out of the fight at that point and could have been bound easily. But that would not have served the same disciplinary cause as actually knowing her out, with no physical consequences other than allowing her to catch up on all the sleep she missed (we were shown that she was going to bed late and getting up early for DAYS). In the end despite all the buddy buddy speak of the Aces, Teana is still in the military and Nanoha is still both her superior AND her combat instructor. And that combination practically means the military considers Teana's ass to be on loan to Nanoha as long as long as she is under her command, and gives Nanoha a pretty wide lattitude in how she approaches training her students as long as fuss is not raised and results are produced.

Why is Teana going insane: She is going insane for a variety of reasons. Firstly she is seriously lacking on sleep (we were shown her unhealthy sleep schedule AND Shamal later comments on how tired she was) which HAS to be affecting her judgement. Secondly it was established during those couple of episodes that Teana, holds herself to a higher standard (the part where she considers that she doesn't like that Mirage has to help her with shots), that she thinks she can not afford not to be the best (she wants to be the enforcer and is feeling that she is not shining as bright as other Forwards which was shown) which makes the fact that she has FAILED AGAIN infinitely worse. To her mind there is no solution any more that leads her to her dream. Given her previous screw ups and what she thinks of her performance in the Forwards, she thinks she is never getting accepted into the Enforcers if all of this gets on her record and she is blame for the lot of it. Given that shock and the lack of sleep, acting irrationally is not that illogical. She sees no exit and is lashing out at the closest source of her problems that is not herself.

I don't think her course of action was particularly out of character. Maybe the set up should have used some work and as I said the way she initially reacts is a bit off. But shooting down her student, she likes, who is not acting like herself before she does something even worse? Totally in her character. She has repeatedly shown that she is not above knocking out people, even friends and people she likes, if she thinks it's in their best interest. And once she decides on such a path she generally tends to shut down her emoting until the task is done, which is why we call these White Devil moments.

You know what is actually completely out of place, but not totally out of character, even for me? Signum decking out Teana with her closed fist. Slapping a mere private with an open palm to tell her she was WAAAAAAAYYYY out of her bounds when talking to your superior would have been fine if a bit extreme. But decking her? Too far IMO.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

I think you get it right there, my suspension of disbelief is broken but not for the reasons you state. Following your analogy with the play I am not looking at the cheap costumes, piss poor probes or overall ascetics as the issue (They don’t help but that is not the issue), the problem is that the actors in question are not even trying. One thing is to have a cheap wolf costume and walk in two legs, another is to not even pretend you are a wolf just spew the lines and going back. The entire play seems so half ass because nobody is putting in any effort and they just go through the motions so that is what bothers me: they don’t care.

Everything looks so clumsy not because lack of resources but lack of passion and dedication. Is almost robotic: deploy sad stuff, sadness deploy, activate sympathy, sympathy activated, proceed with resolution, resolution reach… I can almost see the soulless machine working to imitate the human emotions the previous seasons gave us, and the result is StrikerS a show that rarely manage to make me feel anything but anger.

In the timeline is just that the story never seems to settle in to a routine or anything that could explain the pass of time. This could all happen in two weeks, aside from the obvious mention of more time but not the point, because there was not overarching anything that needed such time to prepare. I mean that the story was not structure to justify it taking a year because of how little they develop anything, stuff just appear all of the sudden with almost no build up or explanation anyway, so the final battle didn’t even need all that much preparing.

So with that regard the White Devil Incident comes across as the cheap ploy it is and falls flat. I have pointed the ways it breaks apart and you have pointed how it makes sense but consider this: Nanoha knew Teana’s issues and she did nothing. For a week she never talk to her, try to see if she was alright or offer any advice. This wonderful Instructor to which we all bow because she loves her students so much, and always try to understand people and reach out… decided that Teana was perfectly alright when even Vice, freaking Vice, was able to tell that was not the case.

And the fact that everyone just thinks this is great, without any voice of dissent being raise until Subaru finally ask why is everyone so mental about this. Yes, all of those things you said are in a way true: this is the military, Nanoha is the trainer… but that is not the point. The scene was not properly settle, it went for the cheap and easy hanging fruit and then acted like this was a complicated lesson from the harsh but overall fair teacher.

But we can’t have Nanoha sitting down with Teana and having an honest talk. That would be boring. We can’t have Teana owning up to her mistakes and trying to resign, because that would actually make sense. No, instead Teana doesn’t even think that she nearly kill her best friend, she makes it all about herself and her mistakes and her pride. Subaru nearly died? Who cares, she is there to help and I am here to win.

It just bothers me that in all this talk about this silly arc, we never see Teana actually growing up. You can screw up, you can fail… the lesson is to stand up again and face it, not to cry over it until the universe turns to look at how special you are. But if you are a good little girl, do as you are told and never try to think for yourself then all your problems will be fix. Because Nanoha always knows best and if you don’t obey… she gets violent! In the end is ok to not be as good as Nanoha, because she will always be there to know what is right!

See? The show is so bad at what is trying to do that I can take the nice and coherent picture you paint, which I admit holds some merit… but since I have to fill the blanks I can easily fill them in a way that gets across a horrible thing. And having different interpretations of an act or a story is good, but in this case I feel is because the writers were lazy and didn’t bother rather than this being so complex and morally grey that it can spark a debate. They clearly meant this to be one way and did not care much than to just patch any possible holes with a half ass excuse and move on.

chaonengqibing's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/25/2017
Posts: 18

Quote:
Teana’s issues and she did nothing. For a week she never talk to her, try to see if she was alright or offer any advice. This wonderful Instructor to which we all bow because she loves her students so much, and always try to understand people and reach out… decided that Teana was perfectly alright when even Vice, freaking Vice, was able to tell that was not the case.

About this, I think maybe is wrong. Because Nanoha can not be so cold for Teana. Nanoha even said to Vita "If there's time to scold and yell at them for little things, Then that should be spent in mock battle, teaching them precisely and thoroughly that way. I was told that a lot while at the instruction squad."
So even Nanoha use magic attack Teana in mock battle, maybe was also a punitive lesson for Teana?

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

Is possible. But Nanoha is not portrait as that type of instructor. The grumpy old veteran who is keen on treating recruits like shit, but the reason is that the instructor knows on the battlefield things would be so hard that it’s better to push the recruits even harder here and now. That type can get away with using indirect teachings and showing that their hard pushes are just meant to challenge their charges to learn in preparation for the real thing.

But Nanoha, as you quoted, says that she rather teaches them. She is clearly one to reach out and speak, not scold you but being kind and nice. So wouldn’t make more sense that Nanoha notice Teana’s overtraining and went to have a talk? Nanoha is not one to shy away from violence but she always tries to talk things first. I think people tend to forget that Nanoha’s main trait is that she wants to understand her opponents first and then bash them over the head, not the other way around.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Actually, Nanoha in a way did both (the trying to understand and slapping down a student who got out of line) in that incident. First she stopped Teana and tried to understand her why was she behaving this way, and then when TEANA refused to talk and showed that she prefers to continue to fight, only then did she decide it was far time to slap Teana down for her own good.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Oh I was not trying to say what exactly broke your immersion, I was just saying I know it broke. If I had to guess back then I would have said it probably broke because you expected one thing from the show (old crew from A's) and this one tried to in your mind force feed you new protagonist 50% of which were useless and other 50% were not as well done as you expected from previous seasons. And to add insult to injury the story, themes and such is all over the place and appears to be significantly different from A's and were done with less skill than was on display in A's.

Sansker wrote:
Everything looks so clumsy not because lack of resources but lack of passion and dedication. Is almost robotic: deploy sad stuff, sadness deploy, activate sympathy, sympathy activated, proceed with resolution, resolution reach… I can almost see the soulless machine working to imitate the human emotions the previous seasons gave us, and the result is StrikerS a show that rarely manage to make me feel anything but anger.

I think you could say that for a lot of stories, it's just that since you are no longer immersed into it you are also able to see it's framework and mechanics which aren't particularly great I would agree. You also previously mentioned how the entire scene felt like drama for drama sake, and while it did work for me, there is another moment in that scene that is a point in your favor that you did mention. Subaru's reaction. They practically close the episode on Subaru being visibly livid at Nanoha making it look like she is about to do something rash in Teana's defence. But that is dropped like a hot rock by the next episode and in fact Subaru comments that Teana is in the wrong and she should have stepped in and stopped Teana back when she started on this path.

Sansker wrote:
In the timeline is just that the story never seems to settle in to a routine or anything that could explain the pass of time. This could all happen in two weeks, aside from the obvious mention of more time but not the point, because there was not overarching anything that needed such time to prepare. I mean that the story was not structure to justify it taking a year because of how little they develop anything, stuff just appear all of the sudden with almost no build up or explanation anyway, so the final battle didn’t even need all that much preparing.

Ehhh, there is a reason for the incident taking a year. It's not a good reason but it's there. The year is there to evoke the idea that the Forwards are in school when they are in RF6 and that they will be graduating when the year is through. They even mention I think graduation in the show. They were trying to show how through education and perseverance a bunch of kids with potential were shaped into great StrikerS. I do not think they pulled it off particularly well though.

Sansker wrote:
So with that regard the White Devil Incident comes across as the cheap ploy it is and falls flat. I have pointed the ways it breaks apart and you have pointed how it makes sense but consider this: Nanoha knew Teana’s issues and she did nothing. For a week she never talk to her, try to see if she was alright or offer any advice. This wonderful Instructor to which we all bow because she loves her students so much, and always try to understand people and reach out… decided that Teana was perfectly alright when even Vice, freaking Vice, was able to tell that was not the case.

Actually Nanoha did talk to Teana. She talked to her after the Hotel Augusta incident, but she seems not to have figured out the actual root cause of the Teana's issues so her talk cured the symptom for now and not the actual root cause. And when Nanoha sees Teana next time during exercise, Teana is visibly upbeat, surprising Nanoha (shown), about it as if she overcame her issues and is now willing to put her 100% into learning. Nanoha made a human mistake ind figured out that everything was fine and moved on. Vice figured something was up because Vice actually saw how hard she was at extra training. Also considering that he has had like 0 chance to interact with the Forwards up to that moment, he probably only accidentally ran into her in the park around Long Arch. He probably should have made a note to Signum (as the closest of the Vice captains to him) about it. Lightning Forwards took extra training as a sign of Teana doing her best, and as far as Subaru is concerned Teana can do no wrong. Meaning since Nanoha did not see much of a problem any more during the exercises and the fact that nobody of the people in the know reported this up the chain, she genuinely was not aware of the problem.

Sansker wrote:
And the fact that everyone just thinks this is great, without any voice of dissent being raise until Subaru finally ask why is everyone so mental about this. Yes, all of those things you said are in a way true: this is the military, Nanoha is the trainer… but that is not the point. The scene was not properly settle, it went for the cheap and easy hanging fruit and then acted like this was a complicated lesson from the harsh but overall fair teacher.

I would give you another point in the regard of attaching the over training to this. Sure it was one of the causes of the incident (Teana was too exhausted to think rationally) but the entire reveal about how Nanoha was shot down did feel tacked on. The actual resolution of the arc (for now) is the second talk Teana and Nanoha have down by the seaside when she reveals to her Mode 2 of Cross Mirage.
Now to be fair I did like the scene with the reveal of what happened to Nanoha, and the entire bit with her basically bitcslapping her nervous system into operation through sheer force of will and need to be in the skies once more is a part of her personality I love. AND my mind has been hard at work rationalizing the addition from the moment I wrote the previous paragraph: the entire detour is a reply through Shari to Subaru's question "Is it wrong to try to do your best", which boils down to Yes if you go beyond your limits, and in pursuit of short termed goals you ruin your long termed ones. So it's connected in that way through Subaru's re contextualization of the situation. But as I said the trying too hard is not really the crux of the issue. Teana did not mess up her magic through overtraining. Teana's issues were of a deeper variety, concerning her lack of self worth, and so the detour felt to have come out of place.

Sansker wrote:
We can’t have Teana owning up to her mistakes and trying to resign, because that would actually make sense. No, instead Teana doesn’t even think that she nearly kill her best friend, she makes it all about herself and her mistakes and her pride. Subaru nearly died? Who cares, she is there to help and I am here to win.

We do get a short scene when she realizes she screwed up and was about to hit Subaru and she is genuinely horrified. But while I would not be as harsh as you are it is in Teana's character to prioritize her goal of becoming an Enforcer and fulfilling her brother's dream at almost any cost. So as soon as she was certain Subaru was fine her onw problems once again came to dominate her thoughts. In some ways, Teana is NOT a nice person when she is being driven by something. Which is why it's a shame we don't get to see her in a story dealing with corruption and darkness in the TSAB. She seems to me like someone who is unlikely to be bribed (if she is an Enforcer) but would be willing to use the means that Nanoha would frown on, if she thinks they are needed.

Sansker wrote:
It just bothers me that in all this talk about this silly arc, we never see Teana actually growing up. You can screw up, you can fail… the lesson is to stand up again and face it, not to cry over it until the universe turns to look at how special you are. But if you are a good little girl, do as you are told and never try to think for yourself then all your problems will be fix. Because Nanoha always knows best and if you don’t obey… she gets violent! In the end is ok to not be as good as Nanoha, because she will always be there to know what is right!

You are correct that she doesn't really grow through this little act. What does instead happen is that her fears that were driving her are assuaged by Nanoha who shows her she is aware of Teana's dreams and was not planning on ignoring them and letting them fall by the wayside which is what Teana was fearing. Teana's actuall moment of growth was in the finalle while cornered by the Numbers. That is when she was finally able to overcome her dark thoughts of inadequacy and finally be able to trust her own abilities and instincts.

Sansker wrote:
See? The show is so bad at what is trying to do that I can take the nice and coherent picture you paint, which I admit holds some merit… but since I have to fill the blanks I can easily fill them in a way that gets across a horrible thing. And having different interpretations of an act or a story is good, but in this case I feel is because the writers were lazy and didn’t bother rather than this being so complex and morally grey that it can spark a debate. They clearly meant this to be one way and did not care much than to just patch any possible holes with a half ass excuse and move on.

In my mind the reason for all these holes, half finished plots and plots left hanging and shafting of some characters is that the story as initially conceived was supposed to be considerably more intricate. They were probably looking at A's (which I'm more and more convinced was a fluke of luck in terms of how much it was able to cram in) and thinking they could do twice as much with twice as many episodes. Too late they realized they were wrong and somebody went with an axe through the script to cut it down to size which unfortunately left quite a few of tails of the old script. Because the show does have quite good individual inter character moments, but those moments unfortunately do not serve to carry a great story because the story has been hacked to bits and then glued together from the remains. Still bad on their part, but I don't think even 7 Arts were fully satisfied with how StrikerS turned out.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

Fair enough but having a bad reason is not excusing poor story construction. I mean the fact that the Forwards needed to graduate just reinforces my original opinion that they can be safely remove and Riot Force 6 would barely lose any fire power.

And that little scene with Subaru reminded me of how the entire thing ended, with Nanoha just saying “You got exactly what you were looking for” and no follow up is done on Subaru looking her mentor and idol Nanoha gunning down her best friend and just casually saying such a thing. Why? Because it would affect the narrative, and having Nanoha calm down and release Subaru so she can take Teana to the infirmary would defuse the situation too fast.

I mean, as shitty as this was, I could buy if Nanoha had calm down of her “angry” mode and ask Subaru to take Teana away, explaining her reasoning. But that would have not being a nice cliff hanger for the next week, so we skip all that and change the tone for the next week to proceed with the plot. Same with the talk, Nanoha missing the mark so badly with Teana and when she thinks she might have screw it up there is the rest to reinforce that she was right and Teana was not.

The entire part where they discuss about Nanoha’s past, which funny enough they actually think Shari shouldn’t have done… I mean in later seasons it is consider normal to just say out loud private stuff about other people with a crowd nearby and without the consent of the person in question. But yes, Nanoha did not show any character because we never saw her getting over that incident, we were told she did got better and that is that.

At all this… what was the moral of the story? Try your best but only sometimes, because otherwise you can get hurt? Is that it? Just have come freaking common sense. This was not an arc this was a waste of time that got us back to where we start. Teana had unfounded fears, made stupid decisions, got punch for it and now she is willing to listen under treat of further violence if she refuses. I mean just put the last talk between Nanoha and Teana right after the first time Teana nearly kill Subaru and the same result would have been archive.

Also… why was Shari or the others listening in? Privacy, it is a thing! Also who cares about Shari? They keep pushing her at odd times and she leaves such an unremarkable impression I confuse her with a protagonist of a hentai I saw once.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Sansker wrote:
Fair enough but having a bad reason is not excusing poor story construction. I mean the fact that the Forwards needed to graduate just reinforces my original opinion that they can be safely remove and Riot Force 6 would barely lose any fire power.

Of course it's their fault. They shot for the stars but messed things up. I was just saying that I don't find the faults of the StrikerS to be the result of the writer having no passion for the project. The passion shows in small things like character interactions which are fun to me, but the big picture arcs and the overall story is all over the place. If you boil things down for the old cast, they really only have like 4 dedicated combat mages that are of a low enough rank to be able to be sent out in the field. That is Nanoha, Fate, Signum and Vita. RF6 was supposed to be a small special forces unit, but 4 is too small. 6 would have been okay, adding only Subaru and Teana, and would allow proper portioning of the troops. Subaru going with Nanoha as her mentor and Teana being Fate's charge.
I would not agree RF6 would have lost no firepower by removing Forwards.

Admin's edit: Your sarcasm regarding yuri was uncalled for, if you dislike the genre so much that you can't stop yourself from complaining every single week just leave the site.

Sansker wrote:
And that little scene with Subaru reminded me of how the entire thing ended, with Nanoha just saying “You got exactly what you were looking for” and no follow up is done on Subaru looking her mentor and idol Nanoha gunning down her best friend and just casually saying such a thing. Why? Because it would affect the narrative, and having Nanoha calm down and release Subaru so she can take Teana to the infirmary would defuse the situation too fast.

I mean, as shitty as this was, I could buy if Nanoha had calm down of her “angry” mode and ask Subaru to take Teana away, explaining her reasoning. But that would have not being a nice cliff hanger for the next week, so we skip all that and change the tone for the next week to proceed with the plot.


Nanoha doesn't say that, but I can see how you might characterize her actions as having said that. I would rather say the message was "Push me too far and ignore my instructions and this might befall you". But yes the ending with Subaru angry looking was cheap. I would not rate Nanoha at the end as angry, more dissapointed that she has to resort to these kind of actions to get Subaru and Teana to follow her instructions.

Sansker wrote:
Same with the talk, Nanoha missing the mark so badly with Teana and when she thinks she might have screw it up there is the rest to reinforce that she was right and Teana was not.

Errmmm, no. Certainly the outcome from Nanoha failing to notice the real issue was what happened, but looking things from their own subjective perspectives the things they were doing felt right. Nanoha felt she has resolved the issue by comforting Teana who was feeling down. Teana on the other hand feared that she was not being pushed enough and was going to be left by the wayside since she is not special. Resorting to radical tactics to prove her worth felt correct in her mind which is a human error under pressure.

Sansker wrote:
The entire part where they discuss about Nanoha’s past, which funny enough they actually think Shari shouldn’t have done… I mean in later seasons it is consider normal to just say out loud private stuff about other people with a crowd nearby and without the consent of the person in question. But yes, Nanoha did not show any character because we never saw her getting over that incident, we were told she did got better and that is that.

It is a breach of privacy I would agree. Then again I allways like this kind of reveals showing the kind of shit the characters went through in past episodes to the amazement of the public. But then again I'm easily amused by silly shit. We were told that Nanoha was point blank told that doctors told Nanoha that she might never walk again let alone fly. That alone should have been a big blow enough to shatter her. Then we were told that despite it all she soldered on, mainaining her usual cherry disposition so others are not saddened, and were shown images of her soldering on through physical training despite pain and setbacks (like falling on the floor and barely getting up on her hands). Short of taking over an episode or two to do a flashback they could have hardly shown us more.

Sansker wrote:
At all this… what was the moral of the story? Try your best but only sometimes, because otherwise you can get hurt? Is that it? Just have come freaking common sense. This was not an arc this was a waste of time that got us back to where we start. Teana had unfounded fears, made stupid decisions, got punch for it and now she is willing to listen under treat of further violence if she refuses. I mean just put the last talk between Nanoha and Teana right after the first time Teana nearly kill Subaru and the same result would have been archive.

The moral of the story is that there is a time and place for everything, including being reckless, but care must be taken when choosing if it's time and place. The moral was have some god damned trust in your teacher Nanoha knowing better than you how to help you reach your dream. She is not an instructor for nothing and knows shit better than you.

Sansker wrote:
Also who cares about Shari? They keep pushing her at odd times and she leaves such an unremarkable impression I confuse her with a protagonist of a hentai I saw once.

Eh I don't mind Shari, although I do tend to prefer the flanderized version that is much more tech crazy than shown in the show, where she was allready a bit more tech obsessed than it's healthy. She is a largely harmless background character, like Amy was in Season 1 and A's, and came as part and parcel with Fate being an enforcer and enforcers have their aides. About the other point, I'll just say she mist have really left a mark on you. Then again who knows how Shari got through the university.

I think we have started chasing our tails, so after your next reply I'll move forwards and get to Hayate.

chaonengqibing's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/25/2017
Posts: 18

4th Dimension wrote:

Quote:
It is a breach of privacy I would agree. Then again I allways like this kind of reveals showing the kind of shit the characters went through in past episodes to the amazement of the public. But then again I'm easily amused by silly shit. We were told that Nanoha was point blank told that doctors told Nanoha that she might never walk again let alone fly. That alone should have been a big blow enough to shatter her. Then we were told that despite it all she soldered on, mainaining her usual cherry disposition so others are not saddened, and were shown images of her soldering on through physical training despite pain and setbacks (like falling on the floor and barely getting up on her hands). Short of taking over an episode or two to do a flashback they could have hardly shown us more.

Nanoha does not want to expose the problem of failure, because it may be a little sensitive and was regarded as privacy. It's just to make people believe it, And story also talked about the situation in the case of Nanoha injury. So If it had not been revealed, Teana may be doesn't believe it, and result will be as easy as Nanoha was injured due to failure. After all, the problem of privacy is good and bad in Eastern countries.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

It's not really that Nanoha doesn't want to talk about it because she failed, in general she is doesn't like talking about what she did out of humbleness and if people start talking about her injury they will inevitably start talking about how brave she was and strong willed to beat her injury and as I said she doesn't like people heaping too much praise on her.
Shari was mildly reprimanded later by Nanoha for bringing this up for this reason I think.

This was to reply to the part of your post that I could understand. But I don't entirely get your point in this section:

Quote:
And story also talked about the situation in the case of Nanoha injury. So If it had not been revealed, Teana may be doesn't believe it, and result will be as easy as Nanoha was injured due to failure.

I think you are trying to say that in this case the revealing of personal information was justified because without it Teana might not have believed in Nanoha's reasons for her "slow" pace of teaching.
Ehhh, as I have previously said over training is not really the core issue here. The core isssue is Teana's fear that she is going to be left behind by her comrades in ability and will never be able to fulfill her dreams. In the process she tried waaaaayyyy too hard when such reckless tactics were not needed and Shari's presentation adresses that, but the situation is only resolved once Nanoha has the talk with Teana down by the sea.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

2.2.3. Hayate

The handling of Hayate is a large issue that this season has. She gets nerfed hard what with making her completely personal combat incapable, which even taking into account the unsuitability of her type of magic to personal combat (she is a AOE nuker so you don’t want her anywhere near population centers, but then again so was Reinforce Eins, whose magic she inherited, and she was a beast) makes it strange that she did not develop some form of personal defense, or learn how to properly use her power after all this time. Some of it can be explained by the fact that her Linker Core is not “natural”. She got born (if she even had one) with a weak one and this one is from Reinforce, as such she does not have the brainpower for magic. Also she seems to have spent most of her time in TSAB in noncombat roles, deskwork and investigation. But still she is a bit of a letdown at the magic front. She does get a couple of moments to shine (freezing the burning airport, nuking Jail’s aircraft fleet, bracketing Quattro and Dieci and fighting her way through legions of drones to reach Vita, Nanoha and Vivio), but they are few and far between and even during those her contributions tend to be of blink and you might miss it variety.
Still it all could have worked out if her command/investigative side was properly done, but that is not the case. I would disagree with those that say such roles don’t fit her. She is quite suitable for that given her
her overachieving (workaholic), bookish and motherly (discipline) attitudes. I’ll talk more on her military performance, but for now I’ll just say that we weren’t shown much. She seems competent at the administrative and political side, but hasn’t been shown doing much of leading and commanding preferring to leave that to her much more combat experienced subordinates. She gets couple of scenes where she makes smart decisions (holding off on displaying abilities of her Aces) and she is shown to be in command of the battle with the drones outside the Cradle.
Her investigative side was initially set up as her big thing that she would be doing during the season, but in the end we didn’t see much of that either. They seem to have been planning for her to have Auris as one of her antagonists as she investigates the corruption in TSAB and fights to keep her unit open, but that got cut hard. For example, they build up in one episode how Auris will be coming to inspect RF6, only to unceremoniously and COMPLETELY drop the entire issue in the next. This is a shame since the darkness in TSAB ranks is hinted on (Regius, what happened to Teana’s brother, High Council etc) but is in the end left almost completely unexplored and that is a shame, especially considering how weak is the antagonist lineup this season.
I would have liked to have seen more politics, especially considering that the politics is one of the instigators of the incident and she is a prime vehicle to explore the darker side of TSAB what with infighting between departments. In the end it is a great shame that fanfiction writers often write a more interesting Hayate. Also I’m unsure 7 Arcs are even capable of writing something that would do her justice. The only thing remaining of her political/investigative plot are all those meetings she attends, many of which simply recap what we already know or suspect but don’t really go into being proactive and helping solve the situation. Which makes the lackness of her subplot even more of a shame since she clearly was not lacking for screentime.
We do get one scene in episode 13 which nicely contrasts Hayate’s life with that of the Nanoha and Fate. Nanoha and Fate at the end of the day withdraw to their brightly lit apartments to each other and their kids, while Hayate withdraws to her office, probably to work until late. There she thinks about what drives her, the fact that her friends trusted her enough to try to pull of the impossible to save her and in the end Reinforce also gave her life for that goal. Given the number of people who staked their lives for hers she is driven to make something out of her life that would help the greatest amount of people in need of help like she was. Also in a scene before that it is pretty much stated outright that a major reason for the ranks Nanoha and Fate now have is because the Yigami’s were pushing on them and Hayate was pulling strings in the main office.
One part of Hayate that did not change and was shown off is that she still likes building families, and her affection and interaction with her new honorary family members was shown. What do you mean new honorary members? I mean people like Genya who is like her mentor/father figure and Verosa and Carim who behave like brother and sister with her. Ahh the secret power of the Nakajima clan to absorb anyone and everyone into their family :). On the other hand, that is spoiled by the fact that the last two are completely superfluous.
Still even with all this disappointment and wasted opportunities, I somehow cannot really get mad at Hayate, so I have to say I liked what little breadcrumbs were shown and I did like her general interaction with the others. As I said I’m more disappointed that this season let her down.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

There isn’t really much to say about Hayate and to me that has always been the problem. People like to hype her as the third Ace, standing in equal grounds with Nanoha and Fate but I never really got her up there. Not that there is not potential, mind you, but is just she is never allow to show much in the grounds of character.

A’s had her being almost a plot device and StrikerS, despite that it free her from her wheel chair, has her sitting down and doing very little. I can’t form an opinion on someone that barely does things and just talks me about the amazing stuff she does when I am not looking (Like forming her unit, plotting with Carim and the others, suspecting the truth about Regius) is hard to like a character that seems keen in telling and not showing.

When Hayate does get in to action I am not all that impress. I like the idea that she has lots of power but poor control but nothing really comes out of it. I would have love to see her directing the troops and showing she is more brains then the others, making it obvious why she is in command but at the end of the day I feel they follow Hayate out of a sense for friendship and not because of respect. Not because they don’t have it, I think they do respect her, is because I never saw anything that made me respect Hayate’s skills as a leader or find her inspiring in any way. She is just there and it is a shame.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

I wouldn't say her involvement in A's was only as a plot device. Her strong unwillingness to endanger others even if it could save her life, her open and warm attitude and ability to see best in people that soothed the edges of the Wolkenritter and her unwillingness to take the easy way out Reinforce was offering her but instead to confront the reality was largely responsible for successful resolvment of the Book of Darkness incident. But yeah she was largely a victim to the whole incident.

As I said I agree with your assessment of her work in A's, although since as we have established I do still trust the storytellers I can extrapolate more things about her involvement that we were kind of shown. She did largely contribute to the success of the final fights by keeping her Ace's final modes secret. Without her and her little bombing run on Jail's fleet, Jail would have gotten his hands on the data about the Blaster and Sonic Drives and would have been most likely prepared for them. Maintaining reserves is a big part of commanding. Also they do show that she is in command during the Cradle battle and as long as she was in command they were mostly keeping the infinite stream of gadgets getting spawned from the Cradle in check. Only when she entered the Cradle because they were running out of time did they manage to break out probably because she was not there to bolster the containment. On the other hand if you no longer trust the storytellers you might consider that they broke through not because Hayate was not there but because it was dramatically appropriate since Signum needed something to show off her unison with Agito.
There is also her handling of the airport fire, which was fine. But again this is probably her greatest showing of her powers and command and it happens in the first episode and never again on the same level.

As for the respect thing, even if she was impressive I don't think Nanoha or Fate are the type to follow someone simply out of respect. They follow Hayate because they trust her as a friend, trust her judgement and finally feel that they have been indebted by the Yigami family whose members were instrumental into getting them into their current positions in Instructor schools and Enforcers (episode 13). This gives me the idea that while Nanoha and Fate were out there getting renown for their action she was working on home front breaking down bureaucratic and political barriers in front of an immigrant and former almost dimensional criminal, by cultivating contacts, mentors and influence. But no none of that is shown either.
The same episode also gave us a brief glimpse into her internal thinking on what drives her, but again it's not much to go on.

One gigantic flag for me for why I think her entire subplot existed but ws cut comes during the final episode when Hayate's support and politicking group gathers and she remarks on how she learned about what was going on with Regius and how it reminds her of her OWN situation where she also tried so hard to protect others and overdid it. In the context of the season as we saw it this line makes no bloody sense at all since Hayate didn't do much at all. But it would have made sense if she had been fighting a political investigative battle in the background and had to do some questionable things to get results.

Still the fact that I personally believe there was a plan for her, not much of that was shown because frankly the whole investigative aspect was resolved via Acous Ex Machina. So while I do like Hayate as a character and her interactions with others, plot wise she does shit the entire season apart from acting as a bridge bunny, and her handling is a massive disappointment.
She is the poster child of some of the characters that fanfiction does a better job with. In fact by now my liking of Hayate is probably built upon that more than on what was shown in the shows, but I am not able to see that.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

It seems we have reach an agreement then. We both see Hayate as something that could have been great but ended with a lot of wasted potential. I mean half of what you say can be summarize in “she was amazing when you weren’t looking” which in the storytelling business is the short hand for: [Insert amazing stuff here]. We just didn’t get much to work with. And I have more but that is focus on the story itself and how they went on it, so I wait until we advance a bit more.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Now about some less than relevant characters:

2.2.7. On the bus crew
One big issue of StrikerS for anyone who liked A’s and its characters is that it largely sidelines and “puts on the buss” quite a few important characters from A’s. I’m talking about the likes of Chrono, Yunno and Arf primarily. I can understand why Arf was put on the buss, what with Zafira preforming the role of the familiar in the cast and there being no way Arf would be able to fit into the military structures knowing her temper and personality. Also they are correct, and Arf says as much, that Fate outgrew her since she is no longer a lone girl that only has Arf for company. Still it is strange that a familiar would not go with its master wherever she goes.
I liked the Chrono from previous two seasons not because he was a nice guy, in fact he was the opposite, but he provided a nice contrast to the rest of the cast who were quite likely to put honor or potential friendship in front of reason. As such he could be ruthless when the situation demanded. He is not completely gone from the StrikerS and is part of the Hayate’s support group, but he might as well not be there and they seriously mellowed him out which now makes him bland. Still I liked his oni-chan scene with Fate. I have a feeling Teana was supposed to replace him in his old role in the team, of a team leader and someone willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish a mission. To be fair the only way he could fit into the script what with his branch of service and rank is as part of Hayate’s political games, but since that was neutered... Still I kind of miss the old asshole.
And then there is Yunno. Oh Yunno. He gets almost completely sidelined, even though he should be able to contribute by researching these Lost Logia that they are chasing and doing infodumps. Considering he is not a frontline fighter and was not the Head of the Library I don’t think he was ever likely to recover his position in the team, but he certainly should have retained his position of being the know it all guy that drops info dumps. He gets to do his job a bit during the intro section of the last fight where he info dumps the info on the Cradle and how it’s controlled and how to shut it down (take out the commander (Quattro/Jail), remove the Saint and destroy the reactor) but he does that to Chrono, NOT to the people actually planning the attack. His only other appearance is a short one during Hotel Augusta incident, and I even got the impression that he has not had any major contact with his friends in YEARS. In fact the reason he was there was because of ‘Rossa, so he has been demoted to Verosa’s friend. A bone is tossed to the poor starving Yunoha supporters with Yuno actually getting to interact with Nanoha, but that is done in a montage, but that ship hits a mine called Vivio. If I’m being ungenerous I could say that I guess Yunno got put on a bus not to disrupt the perfectness of NanoFate shipping, or he might inflict the mere POSSIBILITY horrible heterosexuality on Nanoha (Oh no the horror!).

A.
A.'s picture
Offline
Joined: 08/14/2009
Posts: 3783

You should know that no lesbian is "inflicted with horrible heterosexuality" just for having male friends, like you wouldn't be inflicted with homosexuality for getting a new male friend.

I don't know if you're being ironic again or just trolling, either way you're already warned.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

A. wrote:
You should know that no lesbian is "inflicted with horrible heterosexuality" just for having male friends, like you wouldn't be inflicted with homosexuality for getting a new male friend.

I don't know if you're being ironic again or just trolling, either way you're already warned.


I should have known that joke/overstatement would not have gone over well. I tend to joke, poke fun at the series, about how much the male characters have been sidelined over the years. From nearly half of the protagonists down to Erio, down to noone in ViVid. I actually like the fact that the protagonist is female, which is a nice contrast to the usual sausage factory that are other shows, but the degree to which competent male mages are gone is ridiculous. I also then tend to half joke how this is because 7 Arts has been trying to pander to a valuable part of the fandom that is there mostly for the Yuri subtext of relationships between predominantly female cast. I then tend to construct an UNREALISTIC strawman fan which supposedly would whine any time any of their Yuri ships gets into a ship to ship combat with a non-Yuri ship. I then jokingly blame that part of the fandom (which was probably a minority) for complete marginalization of the few male characters that were left.
This particular joke was meant to joke about how this supposed part of a fandom would react to continued inclusion of Yuno in the plot of StrikerS. This continued inclusion would have been seen, by this supposed part of the fandom as poisoning their main draw of the series and their favourite ship.

Basically it's a silly over the top joke, deliberately made ridiculous so it's obvious it's a joke. But I should have known better that it would have dropped like a rock here.
Again, it's a joke and is not meant to reflect on anybody specific. Why do I have a feeling that I'm still going to get into trouble despite the explanation. I really don't want to, I have still things to discuss that go nowhere near the relationship wars that don't interest me and am not yet planning to go out in a blaze of glory for all 5 minutes it will take for my posts to be deleted and me banned.

A.
A.'s picture
Offline
Joined: 08/14/2009
Posts: 3783

I don't think a joke is very good if you have to explain it, or more importantly if it can offend the people you're telling it to.

Ignoring Vivio/Einhart/Yumina, the only "relationship war" should be the one your strawman invented.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

In this entire retrospective I'm largely reffering to the state of lore and fandom back in the days when the StrikerS was first published, or from the POV of someone who only has access to Original season and A's and StrikerS and nothing after that.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

I think you said it all. Honestly there is not much to look at about these guys since we really don’t have much to go with, so really what can I say? I didn’t mind them gone and I did not mind their little cameos. Personally speaking I always figure Nanoha look up to Yuuno as a mentor figure but they never stroke me as that kind of relationships. They were more like partners than teacher and student, in all honesty.

Chrono was not really all that cold, he was just more professional and Arf… I think that is right with her, she was Fate’s guardian and source of comfort but Fate has no longer a need for her so she lives with Lindy. In all reality none of these three had much to do with anything anymore. I guess they could have taken roles in the show but StrikerS wanted to introduce its new faces so they were kick out or send in the bus as you suggested.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

Yunno: Eh, I would not agree completely, largely because I don't think Nanoha is capable of only treating somebody that helped her a lot as not a close friend. On the other hand just to forestall getting me in trouble I don't think she is viewing him as anything more than a friend despite what he would like. And I'll leave it at that.

I think the next section will be on the actual black hole and massive disappointment of the season IMO the antagonists.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

This is going to be a long one so I'm splitting it into two:

2.2.8. The Antagonists – Jail, Numbers and Lutecia
And this is a BIG failure of StrikerS. Previously, as I said, often the antagonists were sympathetic (Wolkenritter), understandable and even a bit tragic (Prescia). This made them interesting and human. But this time we got s straight out power-hungry monster with no redeeming qualities in Jail. Sure he can be entertaining from time to time in his over the top ranting but because it’s only pointless ranting because his actions are that of a monster he is much more grating than interesting. As if that was not bad enough, they introduce the Numbers, of which there is simply too fucking many of them to give them proper characterization and agency. Some of them are sort of characterized (Nove is brash and angry, Wendy is a bloodthirsty maniac, Cinque is Snake and Quattro is a b-word) but even that comes LATE in the show and only really happened in Vivid. What little characterization they did get did not make them sympathetic to me. This is probably largely due to the limiting of their interaction with the protagonists and their numbers which meant small amount of screen time they got had to be divided between the lot of them.
While my intellectual side understands they are victims and really did not understand what they were doing, being weapons and following orders, the fact that they weren’t particularly soft on the agents of law (they TORE GINGA TO SHREDS, and Wendy gloats over Teana how they are about to kill her), that their behavior was pretty grim (in a world where nonlethal magical options are norm and available) and that none of them ever go against Jail’s terrible orders makes it feel to me that their treatment in the epilogue was not earned and they remained unsympathetic to me.
When I say grim just look at their behavior in anime (now in supplemental mangas or Vivid) for example Wendi wears a smile, but that is not a smile that says I’m a lovable scamp who is there to annoy Nove, but I will bath in your blood silly mage. Nove is a ball of rage, Quatro is a b-word etc. etc. Wolkenritter they are definitely not. As for going against Jail they try to show that Dieci is having doubts, but that is after she helped strap a small child, that kept screaming for her mother, to an operating table and presumably assisted in the horrible procedure while her “dad” kept laughing all the while. And then even while she is saying she has dobits, AFTER even hearing that Jail lied about engineer’s revenge and is in it for power, she still goes along with the plan of killing the mother of the same child to stop her from retrieving her kid. No, simply no, that is nowhere enough for me for you to earn sympathy.
Also along the same line the fact that suddenly Ginga, who was essentially taken apart by them and had her mind raped by Jail, is all for helping them and is there on the island to help them join society. Now I’m not saying this cannot work, in fact there is place there for a good story where Ginga is not doing that at first because she wants to help them but to help herself by facing her nightmares of them taking her apart (Genya being there in that epilogue scene could have been explained with him wanting to provide his daughter with morale support in her efforts to fix herself) but over time she comes to like them and stands up more and more for them. But none of that is shown and nothing is made of what happened to her.
They also suffer from seemingly being waaaayyy too efficient at defeating the protagonists for no explanation during their introduction and the fact that the protagonists only seem to be able to beat/match them in the finale. Compare that with A’s. Some of it is explainable by the fact that they had excellent intelligence on RF6 personnel (since up until the opening acts of the battle of the Cradle Jail was still unofficially part of TSAB) which allowed them to engage perfectly, but I mostly blame things on Sein. If not for Sein Jail would have suffered quite a few blows, Lutecia, Agito and Cinque would have been captured if not for her, and what annoys me the most is that her power is basically cheating and wall hacking.
What they should have done is have Cinque not be retrieved by Sein, and have Jail sell out one of her sisters to show that he doesn’t really care for them. Then Cinque would be the one to make them sympathetic because she will explain to the protagonists what is like being a Number and she would fight to free her sisters from Jail because they already set her up as a sort of authority parent figure to the younger Numbers.
Or simply don’t make him into a monster. Make him actually care for his mecha kids despite unethical way he created them. Maybe he did not care at the start but he does now. So he is fighting not for a nebulous reason of wanting to not be restricted in areas of research (that can be part of the reason), but because he wants to prevent Numbers from being used by TSAB secret council as weapons. This would also go with orders to avoid killing the protagonists because he doesn’t want deaths on their conscience. He is still going for the Cradle, as it’s his best way to escape and maintain his and his kids freedom. Hell we can even keep Quattro as the bad one who in his absence hijacks the plan because she and potentially Duo and Tre are not content with simply escaping but want to get back at TSAB for what they tried to do to them. This would fit much better with the theme of family that is common in Nanoha.
I’ll throw Lutecia in here since she might as well be another Number with how much emotion she displays. She is simply waaaaaayyyy too bland. She has managed to outbland Care in my mind. She does have few scenes where her child self can show, like rescuing Agito, but apart from that her voice is a monotone and she is boring. All of which is made worse by another case of cheating by Numbers where she is LITERALY forced to fight Caro and Erio, using that tired clishe of mind control, simply to make a fight happen which is fucking stupid.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

I never had much love for the Numbers. As you have point out they can be quite unsympathetic and a bit amoral. They seem to be conscious and have free will but stay with Jail regardless. I mean is not like the TSBA actively discriminates against cyborgs or that there is a wide spread sentiment against them so why the Numbers (Or Ginga and Subaru for that matter) had to remain away from normal society? Especially as the older Numbers did express a concern for their younger siblings that never goes so far as to suggest they might be happier and safer away from their psychotic father.

And they even admit that they have no real dreams and just did what Jail tell them because they didn’t saw a reason not to. Jail himself goes between not caring and caring about his cyborgs (He didn’t mind Sette and Tre were about to die with him but then later gave a toast for Due’s memory). And let’s not get in to the whole “pregnancy” stuff, that plot point was never settle and I don’t want to know what happen with it.

The way the Numbers ended with the Nakajima always bother me. Not only they adopted the specific Numbers that brutalize and kidnap Ginga but also one of them help to kill Subaru and Ginga’s mother (Cinque). And I wouldn’t mind if they ever show the reasons why this happen, or they actually see to forgive each other for the whole thing… but they don’t, they never even address the elephant in the room and makes me concern everyone drink a cocktail of xanas to just not think about it.

On a side note, Genya does not seem like a good parent at all. He never shows any concern for his daughters. Even in the first episode he is so calm and casual about his two little girls trap in a raging inferno. Not trying to go with them after they were rescue even. Then one of his daughters is taken and the other wounded and he doesn’t stop by the hospital at all. I know this happens in the extra material but in the anime Genya doesn’t even talk with Subaru once. So maybe the Nakajima family is a bit… odd, to put it softly.

4th Dimension's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2016
Posts: 168

The trouble with NUmbers is that while they seemingly have a freedom of movement and have free will, they simply don't have the expirience to know they are being taken advantage of. We have to remember despite their looks the lot (especially 7+ lot) of them have been only alive/conscious for couple of years or even lot less (I think Nove comes online during or just before StrikerS begins). Whole their short lives they have been raised to believe anything and everything doctor says and a lot of their personality/knowledge was implanted into them from their older sisters. Basically think of them as RL <10 year olds that have been brainwashed into becoming child solders for some warlord. They simply don't have the knowledge manners to know how to properly behave. The only one that might, Cinque, also gets taken out pretty early in the incident. So I understand why the younger ones might be treated lentiently, but that doesn't change the fact that they did actual bad things and probably actually KILLED a lot of normal TSAB mages.

This also made the whole of their portrayal in ViVid seem totally unreal for me, ESPECIALLY their interaction with Vivio. "Oh look it's Dieci-chan. Remember when you strapped me to an operating table so your daddy could operate on me, OR when you did the same thing but now in the Cradle and then tried to kill my mom that was coming to rescue me? Oh the fun and games we had." But I digress.

The whole thing with Nakajimas and recovering cyborgs could have been a GREAT story, which is why it's a shame it was never told.

As for Cinque having a hand in Quint's death. Well for one if she did have, which is uncertain since we only know that she faced off against Zest and they weren't necessarily in the same location, it was done in the course of combat and back then the "not knowing what she is doing" applied to Cinque too. Which is considerably better than break Ginga so she can be mind controlled into collecting or killing her own sister which is what the rest of them did.

Genya's reaction in that episode is fine, it happens in the second episode where we see Hayate's PoV on the event, since he arrives just as Nanoha has rescued Subaru. He then takes command from Hayate so she can start helping. This way he is doing best he can do to help. He is not enough magically inclined to go in there and rescue them directly, and in fact would have been a liability since other rescue workers would need to save him. So he is doing what he knows best to help, and that is to command and coordinate the rescue operations and hope they find Ginga before she gets killed. Also Ginga unlike Subaru has magic to help her so she is lot less likely to get hurt than Subaru, who has already been rescued.
As for the whole hospitalized Subaru thing, I could have sworn I saw him visit her, but then I noticed that you did mentions that it happens in the extra material. Well for one despite how much I like Genya he is an at best support character, so giving him a scene where Subaru talks to him and promisses to get Ginga back, when her drive to rescue her sister has already been established and they needed to do some other things in hospital with Subaru meant that of course Genya's scene was transfered into the manga. I know you don't like or don't consider manga to be part of StrikerS, which is a fair point given that a lot of other shows don't require you to read extra material, but that is the thing with StrikerS a lot of manga issues and sound stages are NOT extra fluff material but are pretty key to understanding events. A lot of them are simply events that might have been initially slated to be part of the show but were transferred over to manga.

Sansker's picture
Online
Joined: 10/01/2011
Posts: 1059

Is not that I don’t count the manga and sound stage as canon. Is just that what they explain does not affect the way it was presented in the series itself. At least to me. I mean this would be like handling a glossary to the audience as they walk in to the movie so they can understand what is going on, you need to put those things in the narrative to make sense of it all.

As for Cinque she did help the murder of Quint, even if indirectly, by helping Jail. And that makes it weird that she could now call her “mother” to say the least. Genya is just funny, because he is Subaru’s father but doesn’t show any concern at all. In fact he seems to act more as a father for Hayate than his own daughters. I guess you can picture him in a better light but I just think it reflects poorly when we assume his thought process was “Should I go and see my daughters? Hmm… nah, I am sure everything is fine”, not exactly Parent of the Year material.

But then again there is so many other things wrong with the antagonists: Zests is my favorite, the guy is a wrecking ball of failures that made me laugh more often than not. And when Tre and Sette try to bring Fate to their side base on… nothing. They are like “Join us” and Fate just says “No thanks”, and they think she is being unreasonable. They didn’t offer anything or have any reason other than Jail may have help, in some obscure way, to her creation. Which just reflex on the poorly construct motivation and dynamics the antagonist had. Jail made you, so you have to be loyal, end of the story