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The MOVIE 2nd A's

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Killuan's picture
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Well if you're going to Fate-fan rant, I want in too.

Spoiler:

Two subtle character developmental aspects I picked up with Fate:

Nanoha has always initiated handholding before with Fate feeling reassured. At the beginning of the movie, Fate held out her hand and waited for Nanoha to take it- probably thinking she’d just shake or something like that- but Nanoha grabs on with both hands and gets all intimate because that's Nanoha for you. Fate was always afraid of initiating intimate affection. That’s why Nanoha looks so surprised when Fate does finally grab her hand.

While Fate was trapped in that dream world and she realized there Nanoha and her family need her- she was told by her big sister even. It was something she was unsure of before- “I was useless in the end”- but trapped with this fake family, she realizes no, my real one needs me more, I need to get out of here and help Nanoha. And she does! She saves Nanoha, just like she promised she would in the last movie- “next time, I’ll save you”. And she’s finally able to move on from that place where she feels useless and trapped with the ghost of her mother. She has confidence in herself, she can move forward, and now she’s comfortable taking Nanoha’s hand, in comforting Nanoha, instead of always waiting for Nanoha to take her hand, instead of feeling unworthy of her.

The transition of events in moving form~

___________________________________________

And also, Fate reconstructed Precia to act like Lindy in her dream, as shown when Lindy and Precia both touched her face in the same place.

And yes, that white cloak on Fate is fabulous max. Also, if you look to where her skirt is, that aspect was changed as well, it looks much closer to her StrikerS impulse for.

Fate <3

Lex
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I loved all the wonderful, subtle character development. I loved it when Fate took Nanoha's hand. Their relationship was developed so much more than in the original A's.

The fact that Fate constructed Dream!Precia to act like Lindy is so heartbreaking. I cried. The movie did an excellent job with that relationship too.

It was an excellent movie! I'm really looking forward to the next one.

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I don’t mind Fate but on the movie some of the scenes lost emotional impact. I mean they were not as strong as they want them to be. The dream thing with Fate in the Book of Darkness feels rush in both the movie and the series.

Killuan's picture
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I can't say I agree with that assessment. There were a lot of emotions in that dream scene from the movie. Then again, I thought the series version was done really well too, so... :|

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I don't say it lacks emotion, I say it feels fast for its own good. The scene is really slow and should be look with more care but as is set in the middle of the fight we really can't spend too much time looking at it without getting out of track with the fight.

Something I do blame the movie for is Nanoha's small role. She was small in the original series but here she is almost not develop or use. Something I always blame A's because Nanoha is just being set in there. The Wolkenritter and Fate had more story and character grow than the main charcter of the show. Hayate I never really count her.

Killuan's picture
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Well, while I certainly wouldn't complain if it were longer--as long as you can feel the strong emotion in the scene, then it was long enough.

I'm not sure if "small role" is a good way to put it. She was the one who fought Reinforce. Though she didn't have much development, true. I don't remember her having much in the A's series either, though.

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The problem with Fate on A’s is that her story is handle bad. She is going from a great deal of things: consider herself human, living a normal life, being accepted in a circle of friends and coming at peace with Precia’s memories and Lindy’s role as her new mother. So really all of that material was always in the side line. Yes here and there we see it but is never a theme that carries the story, is just like padding in to the next action scene. And isn’t bad, here or in the original series, but is not that good. A more consistent way to integrate all stories in to this one will be great. The problem with Fate is that all of this isn’t helping or affecting her character arc, just happens to be in at the same time, so Fate’s arc feels less connected to the actions at large. Of course in the end the connected it, directly, by having Fate being taken in the Book of Darkness. But then again is not what I call handle that well.

Nanoha does have a small role. Compare to the first season or movie where she was in the center of everything in this movie she and Fate are send to the side line and keep coming to the front only because they are the most competent people around. Hayate is the same in some levels, because despite people claiming her as the main character… A’s isn’t Nanoha’s or Hayate’s story. This isn’t about them and is kind of a let down.

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Whether or not it was directly linked to the story doesn't mean much to me. Fate's issues were getting over her past trauma of her mothers death and being abused. In light of that, I think the dream scene fully fleshed out that aspect of Fate, and she grew as a character because of it. Fate's story is a sub plot to the main plot, it can stand on its own and doesn't need the main plot to give it a push. Like which is the case with Hayates story since it was directly linked with the Book of Darkness. I'm not sure if we're debating the same thing here, but regardless what it did for the overall plot of A's/movie, it was still great development for Fate.

I don't understand why you need to be the center of the plot to have a large role. What constitutes as a "large role" to you? Nanoha got all of the main battles, who would take that role in her place?

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To be more change and affected by the events of this plot. Also to be more involve. Nanoha overall just hang around this story and while does some stuff this doesn't feel like is about her even in the sligthest of manners.

Killuan's picture
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Well, it's not about her. But she's still the one trying to resolve the issues of the characters it is about.

Lex
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I see there are complaints about the movies focusing on Fate too much on here as well as other places. Fate's character arc needed to be continued in A's. Not doing that would have been emotionally unsatisfying. She's drawn into the Book of Darkness case, along with Fate. So her story is continued as she's drawn into the case. Fate's arc is about recovering from child abuse, which is a very powerful theme to tackle. I have no idea how it reduces the emotional impact. If anything I thought the movie had more emotional impact, especially in regards to Fate' story, the Fate/Nanoha relationship and Hayate's story. Having Hayate never actually found out what Graham was doing behind her back onscreen was emotionally unsatisfying, imo.

And focusing on how the previous Book of Darkness incident impacted a single mother and her son is far more powerful than having it about Graham. A man doing morally ambiguous things for the greater good and to atone for past mistakes is ... kind of cliché. It's been done many times before. Stories with single mothers are much rarer. That also gave the story more emotional impact to me.

I'm tired of the constant complaints leveled at the movies and Fate by the fandom. It's been taking over the fandom. I think it's best if I just hang out in my small corner of the fandom.

A.
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I've yet to watch the latest movie, but I really doubt any Nanoha fan could dislike the generous presence of Fate in the show :)

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>>Lex

If you're referring to the Animesuki Nanoha subforums, I would pay them no heed. I don't really see complaints about Fate having "too much focus" except for over there.

Most people still appreciate Fate, the Animesuki subforums are just odd...

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I get a lot of nice feeling from those guys but I can agree with them with Nanoha having a small role and the fact that the first 30 to 45 minutes of the film sucks. No bad, but the transitions don’t feel natural and some scenes are play really disjointed. Like hey look at this, then next scene and the other doesn’t relate to the previous one. But I don’t think that was because of Fate, just that Nanoha need better work.

Killuan's picture
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Don't you mean "Bad feeling from those guys."?

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If is bad is on their side. I don’t mind them. And I don’t think is fair to discuss this here.

So back to the movie something I did like about it was how Reinforce was introduced early. I mean yes, we do feel bad for her but she jumps out of nowhere in the end heaving her being a character from earlier in the film makes her tragedy take more weight. Better when the mangas already establish she did appear before but decide, for no real reasons to not appear with Hayate. I say is because the writer never really thought about it but I think the guy already show how much of a moron he is.

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I like Fate just fine and i like to see her getting some spotlight but not at expenses of other character, the poor Wolkenritter suffered pretty bad due to that and felt like background characters within their own freaking movie xDU

The sad part is that this was probably the last piece of Nanoha media where they'll get any sort of plot significance or focus. Thanks Fate -_-

Lol, i think my signature finally come to support my argument for once xDU

Signum: ...it's not my fault i'm not popular!

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But Aki, you have to realize how blown out of proportion that is. Did Fate really have so much screen time? Is 7minutes for her dream scene and another 2 minutes for her chat with Lindy really classified as screen hogging? Because what else did she have that would qualify? If you sat back and tried to be subjective without listening to Animesuki propaganda, you would see the truth.

Blaming Fate for what Tsuzuki did not add into the movie is so ridiculous.

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3 minutes should suffice for her Dream Sequence but yeah, it's not only Fate, it was also things like Reinforce VS. NanoFate fight being unnecessarily long and as a result the fights with the Wolkenritter were pretty short, inconclusive and rather unsatisfying.

The exclusion of the Lieze Twins also affected the plot harder than i tought it will, i tought things will be different now but the Wolks came out a lot more nervous, insecure and selfish than in the TV, series.

And talking about the last battle, i'm the only one that got a bit unsettled by this over-emotional Reinforce who spend all the fight crying and screaming? In the TV series she was stoic, resigned and calm with slight glimpses of her silent suffering which make the tears coming from her cold face much more meaningfull and powerfull, also her cold attitude like she doesn't give a dime about who her opponent is made her to look much more imposing, like a force of nature rather than an enemy.

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I'm not sure they could do that whole scene in three minutes...but anyways, see, you admit there were other issues. So why does all the blame get passed on to Fate? It's a mystery I will never understand.

The exclusion of the Lieze Twins is the only way to make the movie work, really. Without removing even more content, anyways. Not a whole lot changed though except for the first battle, and why the book activated and killed the knights. I'm not sure I'd say they were more selfish, more hard-headed, perhaps. But hey, Vita's always been that.

I don't know, stoic is good, but stoic doesn't mean emotionless, it simply means they're good at suppressing their emotions. If tears are running down her face, she already failed to suppress the emotions, so they may as well give the character a bit more lively expression while they're at it. In the movie, Reinforce was more conscious and since she loved her master and the wolkenritter, she let her emotions get the best of her. In the series, she was more like a broken program being controlled to destroy. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

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That's the point of the stoic facade, to make more impressive when emotions start breaking it's way into surface. Intead the movie goes with Reinforce moping and screaming all the fight (which again, was dragged a bit too long, hurting the other fights in the movie) which kind of lessened the impact of her emotionak breakdown. It felt like an exaggerated actress in a soap opera.

The same goes for Signum, in the TV series she's cool headed and calm. She's a strategist, a leader who always have an answer even during though times, she only lost her papers aroumd three times and always because a powerfull reason.

In the Movie? She was rushed and sensible, getting all shocked and over emotional almost every scene she got after her introduction, when Lindy told her about Clyde, Signum almost got teary and has to be snapped out of tha by VITA of all people. Such a great and reliable leader huh?

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well the creator don't seem to like Signum or her master :D the wolkerin and hayate always seem to get shafted :D

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I think it's not bad to see a different side to a character. Fate was a little different in the movie too and I found it a nice side to her. Nanoha is the only one that more or less stayed the same. And it's not like the Wolkenritter or Reinforce were completely irrational. Crying in general was a lot more frequent in the movie, compared to the series. It loved all dem tears...Albeit, those were some nicely animated tears.

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Not completely irrational?

In the series they had the excuse of the Lieze Twins to explain why they simply didn't managed to talk out things with Nanoha and Fate, when they finally get to meet each other and talk they became allies almost instantly. During the movie without the Twins they become a bunch of self-centered jerks who flat out rejected Nanoha and Fate's good intentions. The scene at the roof of the hospital was especially jarring, Signum basically wen't all "I won't listen to anything you want to say because i'm too focused on following the method i already have doubts it will work!" or ...as someone on another forum puts it "Lalalalala! I can't hear you! lalalala! I'm not listening! You'll die!".

I mean c'mon i know Signum can be hot headed once in a while but that was just plain silly o_oU

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I'm, surprised she didn't also cover her eyes and say, "This conversation is over. I can't see you, I can't hear you, I'm invisible now."

Q: Where am I?
A: Everywhere.

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Lol, indeed.
If we're objective, though, in any other situation Signum's approach would be the right one as your enemy would lie to stop you and listening would simply give them ammunition.
Of course, the key words here are "any other situation". XD

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To be fair Nanoha always likes a direct and somehow stupid approach to problems. Do I need to remind you of Teana in StrikerS? The best way to help her was letting her make mistakes and hitting her for not getting the hint they never told her to get. And it work in the end.

Now, on the movie, I do think this wasn’t that bad. Yes Signum didn’t want to listen but there is more to it than just that. When you come down to it the Wolkenritter were already in a short time situation and this just happens to hits them when they are so close to end this nightmare. Just a few more pages and Hayate will be safe, they are so close now and Hayate is getting worse by the second so, really, will you stop and listen to anything else at this point? We could see it as Signum just going with this because she thinks they sacrifice and risk so much to just stop by now. Yes, it sounds a little silly when Signum uses those lines, but is not all that bad.

Like I was hopping not having the twins and Graham barely affected the movie as a whole. There are problems in there, I am not going to say is perfect, but is foolish to think adding three more characters will magically fix everything.

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The problem is they didn't fixed plot and characterization after taking out Graham and the twins, they just glued togheter whatever has been left of the original plot and plasted NachtWall on it to try and make some sense out of this mess of a plot xDU

Signum and the Wolks were much less sympathetic in the movie due to them being self-centered and rude all the time when in the anime it was made clear they really tought they didn't had another option but continue. In the movie the KNOW there are other options and that there's help beng offered to them coupled with the fact they are AWARE of what happened to previous masters this time xDU Their answer? "We'll fill the book AGAIN and hope it'll magically work this time" ...what kind of reasoning is that? I mean they're more emotional in the movie because stuff happened in a more rushed way but that isn't an excuse to act like childish morons who reject any sort of advice just becuase they're too scared. I mean, it's sort of understandable with Vita, being the hot headed member of the team and all, but the rest doesn't have such an excuse, Signum is the worst offender because she's almost the exact oppossite of her TV counterpart, losing her papers with almost every plot twist that crosses her path xP

Oh yeah, i've just rewatched the first three episodes of the TV series just minutes ago, Fate was overall more badass in the series during the first fight, she almost defeats Vita, put up a decent fight to Signum and acted with swift coldness instead of crying and gushing around before Signum offed her in mere seconds xDU Fate did pretty good during the rest of the movie but her introduction was terrible. Yuuno looks pretty darn cool casting spells with chant and handsings showing a mage can hold himself without devices if he's skilled enough, hell even Arf gets to shine instead of, well, yeah...

With most of their movie fights cut short and most of their movie scenes completely dedicated to Reinforce the Wolkenritter suffer from a very lacking characterization in the film. I fear for anyone who watches this movie without having watched the series first because the Wolks will look pretty bland to said person -_-

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I believe here I am lost. In the movie at no point they seem to know there is any other option. At least not one that could work. Hayate being drain by the Book of Darkness could be stop by completing them damn thing and at no point the Wolkenritter show they knew what will happen in the end, they don’t remember. Vita just remembers that things went always bad when she stares at Nathwall in the final fight. Signum and the rest were more focus but they could not risk the Book being take away, again we are ignoring the fact Hayate doesn’t have much time left to just explore other options.

While I admit the movie feels rush and is shorter I don’t think it miss the point. Doesn’t go in the same detail of the series but only because that is impossible. However the basic characterization of the Wolkenritter is still hinted well. Most of the time we make a big deal about them when the truth is that we just like to explore their characters a little more but there is never much there. Is not bad is just not as deep as many people will like to believe.

Over the fact that in this movie character react instead of showing poker faces almost all of the time is about taste. I like a strong character that can actually deliver with a calm execution but due the lack of time a little more emphasis in emotion is need it. So Reinforce and Fate act more as humans than cold machines. Fate herself allow more of her child nature to come in to play because is a child that has been force to mature too fast and has to deal with a lot of loses in such a small amount of time. So really seeing her best friend just might be death for all she knows is going to shake her a little more. We also need to cover that the scenes from the start of the series and the movie aren’t exactly the same.

But all of that comes down to personal preferences. To me the movie does a good job as an adaptation if still has some flaws. They don’t feel as out of place as other moments in StrikerS and to be fair this is suppose a different dimension so we might as well say they are different.

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Lol saying they're not as bad in the Movie 2nd as they were in StrikerS is the same as saying chicken flu is not the same as liver cancer. Not being as bad as StrikerS doesn't make it nstantly good.

But yeah, it's all matter of perception. Fate was good in the movie despite a lame introduction, i liked her scenes and i think those were well made as standalone scenes. What i disliked is how those were administrated within the movie's lenght.

As i've said i came to this movie with high hopes of seeing some good Wolkenritter developement given this is the season where they're suppossed to be lead characters. MOVIE 1st did an splendid job fleshing out the main antagonists so i was hoping the same will happen here but the end result was pretty clumsy. They even emded up offering LESS of their characters than they did in the series.

Seems A's TV was and still will be the only piece of Nanoha media were the Wolks get to shine u_u

That's why i wish for Signum's death in FORCE. So she can be remembered with some dignity.

Signum: ...it's not my fault i'm not popular!