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Nanoha, Fate and Vivio official relationship status (SERIOUS discussion only)

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4th Dimension's picture
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I'm making a new thread so I do not bother the moderator by continuosly posting offtoppic about this in the old thread.

The type of status I'm talkiing about is the official one as presented in the different mediums of the franchise. As such interviews and opinion pieces by the creators to me hold less weight than things officially stated in the various mangas, anime shows or sound stages.

The following is my opinion as far as I can back it up with the stuff present in the material.

While StrikerS Sound Stage M3 (part 3) does try for some reason to portray Vivio's view of Fate as less of her as mother and more of a sister (curiously they seem to forget that in the next parts of the same sound stage?!?).

Some have advanced the proof to the contrary that the legal status of Vivio has changed as of Vivid, but I didn't really see it. I reread the first issue and Vivio says that Fate is her guardian and become that at the same time Nanoha became her mama. That would mean the status did not change.

But it's also pretty much clear form the way she interacts with Fate ever since Vivid that she does treat both as her parents. There is even a short manga, 2nd Mother's Day, about Vivio giving Fate a present for father's day written by the author himself. Trouble with that one is that it's a doujin reputedly (the only source I found was from this board) written by the main writer of Nanoha and was also reputedly published in one of the A La Carte anthologies, which are basically collections of 7 Arts approved fanfic doujins and as such I would not rate them as cannon.

But despite it all I accept the fact that Vivio treats both as her mothers.

As for the main event, the official status of Nanoha/Fate.

First off, I do not dispute that the main writer considers and writes them as a romantic couple. There is also Vivio's statement in first issue of Vivid that Fate is Nanohas "close" person.
But close might mean a number of things and their relationship as shown is pretty damn platonic with no indicators of romantic entanglement. The most romantic part that I can remember is that in Vivid during the Alpine retreat training Nanoha and Fate once leave the group to go fly alone in the skies. That could perhaps be considered a date I guess. Or them simply enjoying a bit of relaxed dog fighting, since they can't do that back in the capitol.

So TLDR there has been a lot of teasing, winking and nudging in the official content as to their relationship but nothing conclusive. Considering that one of the themes of Nanoha has been family, especially unconventional family, one could treat them as sisterly friends raising a kid together and would not be contradicted by much.

A.
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Are you playing devil's advocate 4th Dimension? I think this is what you guys call flogging a dead horse. Some of these points were answered here, just leaving this link for the reference of new users. Some other things that are probably buried in the forums but that we can just repeat for the sake of convenience:

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While StrikerS Sound Stage M3

I have almost forgotten about those, the Megami/M sound stages are not canon, and are not always consistent with the rest of the series, they are about talking to the fans through letters and break the 4th wall.

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Some have advanced the proof to the contrary that the legal status of Vivio has changed as of Vivid

Fate initial status to Vivio was godmother after StrikerS, and changed to guardian (with Nanoha) before Vivid when their marriage had to take place, both facts about their status change should have been made reference to a couple of times. If you want to fit the literal English translation from that quote from Vivio you can say Fate wanted to become her guardian from the start but they opted for Nanoha to become the guardian for the legal restrictions and had to get married so both can become guardians.

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But it's also pretty much clear form the way she interacts with Fate ever since Vivid that she does treat both as her parents. There is even a short manga, 2nd Mother's Day

That is very obvious, they're written as a family and Nanoha and Fate as an adult couple for 9 years, starting with StrikerS. The A la Carte manga are that, manga, not doujins or fanfics, and are a official part of the series, they don't expand the plot or change the NanoFate relationship or the relationship with their daughter, so you can ignore them if you don't like the idea of a manga that uses multiple artists and is mostly inconsequential comedy.

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First off, I do not dispute that the main writer considers and writes them as a romantic couple. There is also Vivio's statement in first issue of Vivid that Fate is Nanohas "close" person.

The second statement doesn't contradict the first one, nor the fact that they're a family and her mothers are married. It's a fact that Nanoha and Fate have been referred as each other's special one/close person/most important person in different sources depending of the situation, and that their marriage and future biological child hasn't been spelled out outside of magazines, events or artworks, but not all characters traits, relationships or plot elements have to be textually spelled to be considered canon, a lot of details in a story are implied through other events or actions.

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But close might mean a number of things and their relationship as shown is pretty damn platonic with no indicators of romantic entanglement.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this, they're written as an adult couple, in the previous quote you also agreed that they're written as a romantic couple by Masaki Tsuzuki. It's true that now that Vivio is in the picture Nanoha and Fate have barely been part of the picture, and as a result we don't get to see much of them, but their life as a married couple is nothing close to "platonic" in any way, even their sexual life as a couple has been implied in different sources even before they were declared canon.

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Or them simply enjoying a bit of relaxed dog fighting

Fate said she wouldn't spar directly against Nanoha after the accident she had before StrikerS.

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one could treat them as sisterly friends raising a kid together and would not be contradicted by much.

You will have to change a lot from StrikerS and Vivid to do that, and in the process probably lossing most of the Nanoha fans. Nanoha and Fate are not only raising a kid together or playing house, they're two lesbians that sleep together that chose to adopt a young girl and marry, they got a house together and are known and accepted by their friends and family for what they're.

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A. wrote:
Are you playing devil's advocate 4th Dimension? I think this is what you guys call flogging a dead horse. Some of these points were answered here, just leaving this link for the reference of new users. Some other things that are probably buried in the forums but that we can just repeat for the sake of convenience:

Since this is a new thread I wanted to remind of salient points from both sides.

A. wrote:
Quote:
While StrikerS Sound Stage M3

I have almost forgotten about those, the Megami/M sound stages are not canon, and are not always consistent with the rest of the series, they are about talking to the fans through letters and break the 4th wall.

I would agree that the events in those never happened in cannon, but I would dissagree that they have no relevance on cannon. If a character gets asked what they think of A and they answer B. Then it should mean that canonically they really do mean B about A, even though the question never got asked in cannon. Otherwise there would be no reason to them.

A. wrote:
Quote:
Some have advanced the proof to the contrary that the legal status of Vivio has changed as of Vivid

Fate initial status to Vivio was godmother after StrikerS, and changed to guardian (with Nanoha) before Vivid when their marriage had to take place, both facts about their status change should have been made reference to a couple of times. If you want to fit the literal English translation from that quote from Vivio you can say Fate wanted to become her guardian from the start but they opted for Nanoha to become the guardian for the legal restrictions and had to get married so both can become guardians.

Did anyone ever check in original japanese that the term actually did change and it's not a case of different translations made by different translation teams?
The trouble is I have read pretty much everything that is available in English and yet I don't remember them ever drawing attention to the fact that something/anything changed.
Would you mind providing examples?
The only thing that changed that potentially see is that pre Vivid Fate still had her own quarters, where she hung out with Erio and Caro, even though she lived in Nanoha's place a lot of the time.
As for the interpretation of the quote, a lot of things can work since Vivio herself says she doesn't remember since she was little. For me the marriage explanation does not work since they are never explicitly refered to as married. It could be that she started as a godmother since she was unsure if she could be a proper mother to Vivio what with Caro and Erio and her work as an Enforcer and later agreed to be her guardian after things settled, and Vivio simply doesn't remember such details. But eh it can work both ways I guess.

A. wrote:
Quote:
But it's also pretty much clear form the way she interacts with Fate ever since Vivid that she does treat both as her parents. There is even a short manga, 2nd Mother's Day

That is very obvious, they're written as a family and Nanoha and Fate as an adult couple for 9 years, starting with StrikerS. The A la Carte manga are that, manga, not doujins or fanfics, and are a official part of the series, they don't expand the plot or change the NanoFate relationship or the relationship with their daughter, so you can ignore them if you don't like the idea of a manga that uses multiple artists and is mostly inconsequential comedy.

Ehh, considering some of the plots that can be seen in those I wouldn't agree that they are part of cannon. I mean among for example there is one where Nanoha and Fate use the Jewl Seeds for personal gains. I consider them as cannon as the official manga OVAs (nano?).

A. wrote:
Quote:
First off, I do not dispute that the main writer considers and writes them as a romantic couple. There is also Vivio's statement in first issue of Vivid that Fate is Nanohas "close" person.

The second statement doesn't contradict the first one, nor the fact that they're a family and her mothers are married. It's a fact that Nanoha and Fate have been referred as each other's special one/close person/most important person in different sources depending of the situation, and that their marriage and future biological child hasn't been spelled out outside of magazines, events or artworks, but not all characters traits, relationships or plot elements have to be textually spelled to be considered canon, a lot of details in a story are implied through other events or actions.

Those statements are not meant to contradict each other. I'm perfectly able and willing to look at a problem from both sides. I was stating the evidence present in the content FOR Nanoha and Fate having a romantic relationship.
Except as far as I remember Nanoha has only ever refered to Fate as her best/closest friend in StrikerS. On the other hand she might have changed that but I don't remember something like that being raised in Vivid or Force.
You can sure alude things but if they are married/in a romantic relationship, I like for things to be specifically spelled out to dispell confusion. But I'm starting to think that the inability to state their relationship might be some sort of Japanese thing.

A. wrote:
Quote:
But close might mean a number of things and their relationship as shown is pretty damn platonic with no indicators of romantic entanglement.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this, they're written as an adult couple, in the previous quote you also agreed that they're written as a romantic couple by Masaki Tsuzuki. It's true that now that Vivio is in the picture Nanoha and Fate have barely been part of the picture, and as a result we don't get to see much of them, but their life as a married couple is nothing close to "platonic" in any way, even their sexual life as a couple has been implied in different sources even before they were declared canon.

What I think I said is that Masaki himself considers them, wants them to be in a relationship. But is he allowed to express that is a whole another thing, since he does not own the characters or the franchise as far as I'm aware and as such he is not the only one deciding on how they are being portrayed.
I myself don't remember such implication of sexuality between them anywhere in the content. At most the only thing that approach that is Nanoha referring to Fate's beautiful eyes back when they were preteens so that doesn't really count, and the fact that they often have sleepovers since Fate hangs around Nanoha all the time. So I'm going to have to ask for some sources if you wouldn't mind.

A. wrote:
Quote:
Or them simply enjoying a bit of relaxed dog fighting

Fate said she wouldn't spar directly against Nanoha after the accident she had before StrikerS.

I'm not saying they would spar, as in exchange blows. But simply flying together basically playing air tag should be a pretty safe and entertaining thing to do for the air mages.

A.'s Edit: Removed the last paragraph, it could be interpreted as offensive to Nanoha fans and I would prefer to keep this civil and avoid chances of people getting angry at some minor thing. You're free to reword it.

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4th Dimension wrote:
If a character gets asked what they think of A and they answer B. Then it should mean that canonically they really do mean B about A, even though the question never got asked in cannon.

Not if the sound stage is not canon and has events that contradict the main timeline. In that regard the sound stages made by Megami have no relevance to the original Nanoha timeline.

4th Dimension wrote:
Did anyone ever check in original japanese that the term actually did change and it's not a case of different translations made by different translation teams?

Yes, people checked, it was an important step for the series, people even used to troll NanoFate because she was just a Godmother, if that wasn't the case at the beginning of their family our site would have had it easier. Good thing Fate got promoted to guardian soon.

4th Dimension wrote:
The only thing that changed that potentially see is that pre Vivid Fate still had her own quarters, where she hung out with Erio and Caro, even though she lived in Nanoha's place a lot of the time.

That was baseless speculation as explained here.

4th Dimension wrote:
For me the marriage explanation does not work since they are never explicitly refered to as married.

it's the only explanation that works, that's the reason why it's canon. Something doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in a specific manga to be canon, it can be implied or be subtext.

4th Dimension wrote:
I mean among for example there is one where Nanoha and Fate use the Jewl Seeds for personal gains. I consider them as cannon as the official manga OVAs (nano?).

The "nano" 4 komas? Those were not official and not canon. The events of that specific comic don't seem to contradict anything from the main timeline in the Nanohaverse anyways, sometimes characters are played for laughs in those and that's something you must accept.

4th Dimension wrote:
You can sure alude things but if they are married/in a romantic relationship, I like for things to be specifically spelled out to dispell confusion. But I'm starting to think that the inability to state their relationship might be some sort of Japanese thing.

Since their marriage is canon you can say that it's stated, it's just that it isn't something explicitly stated going for the manga or anime alone, and I agree that can generate confusion more easily into the non hardcore Japanese fans that don't follow the big anime magazines or go to live events.

4th Dimension wrote:
I myself don't remember such implication of sexuality between them anywhere in the content.

There is the whole sex for 3 hours things that was a meme on /u/ and then got put into a magazine, small moments in Vivid Life, outside of the most explicit stuff from the Nanoha Parties and Megami, all the usual well known stuff that gets posted every time, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something from a sound stage. Attached a few pictures from the raws.

4th Dimension wrote:
I'm not saying they would spar, as in exchange blows. But simply flying together basically playing air tag should be a pretty safe and entertaining thing to do for the air mages.

That sounds so innocent~ I think a couple enjoying a date under the moonlight would normally have better things to do than play tag.

nanofate_064.jpg 00092.jpeg 00052.jpeg 00047.jpeg

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We will use this thread to discus any questions regarding the canon material that shapes the lives of Nanoha and Fate as an official couple and as the mothers of Vivio.

In view of the recently deleted posts I'm forced to close the thread for some time: this is not the place for personal bias, arbitrarily disregarding parts of the franchise as non canon because you don't personally like them, or ignoring evidence because it comes from one of those places.

Feigning to ignore facts explained in this thread will be considered as trolling, and this is not the place to bash a couple you don't like either; if that's the case you may be better off to another website.